Jeremy Vine Show on Radio 2

[mikesumner]

Evening people,

Did anyone else hear the rubbish Jeremy Vine was spouting on his radio show today on BBC Radio 2.

He was comparing the Nissan Leaf (which has just been announced to be receiving £20 million of government money) to our favourite stainless steel car and saying that making the comparison wasn't fair to the Nissan. The cheek of it.

I had to chuckle because he asked if there were still any DeLoreans in existence because it shows the classic scenario of people that know next to nothing about the target of their abuse thinking they can wade into battle with a few cheap quips and pass themselves off as being well-informed. Sadly not.

Why do so many people seem to think, I wonder, that just because something is no longer in production means that they all instantly vanish from the face of the Earth? I drive an MR2 that hasn't been produced since 2000, yet there are still plenty about. It's farsicle and just serves to highlight the scrappy reporting that the BBC peddles these days.

Anyway, rant over. No doubt this will prompt some comments as debate is after all a symptom of democracy.

[stunned_monkey]

Look ast it as free publicity.

The guy from TG magazine was pretty much on the money when he said that DeLorean failed due to lack of funds to fully develop the car/company.

JV was also thoroughly misinformed about electric cars, battery technology and read out a comment from some fool who cited hydrogen as the fuel of the future as used in the Honda clarity.... which is a fuel cell based electric car :roll:

Digressing slightly, here's a fact to bend your brain... more hydrogen is stored in 1l of petrol than in 1l of pure hydrogen.

[Guinney1971]

stunned_monkey Wrote:Digressing slightly, here's a fact to bend your brain... more hydrogen is stored in 1l of petrol than in 1l of pure hydrogen.

ok Martin, I've not even had a beer (yet) tonight and my grey matter is in meltdown :lol:

Electric cars IMO, are a waste of time and not green - so where does this wonderful clean
electricity come from? Oh yeah, coal fired powerstations........ :roll:

Ok, so who fancies a DeLorean meet down at the beeb then one lunchtime to show JV that
the cars do exist, and in healthy numbers in this country! 8)

[stunned_monkey]

Guinney1971 Wrote:ok Martin, I've not even had a beer (yet) tonight and my grey matter is in meltdown :lol:

Electric cars IMO, are a waste of time and not green - so where does this wonderful clean
electricity come from? Oh yeah, coal fired powerstations........ :roll:

Well the oil will run out one day - in fact I was watching summat the other night where they were warning that we may start seeing a serious increase in oil prices in about 5-10 years. So what do you replace it with? We will need to within our lifetimes.

Hydrogen is great in theory but it takes more energy to get the hydrogen than you can get out of it when it's used. It's the least dense of all the elements so your petrol tank would need to quadruple in size to carry the same energy (NB this is by volume, not mass), and that's ignoring the fact that it has to be compressed and cooled to liquify it. Petrol is a very efficient method of storing hydrogen!

Biofuels won't work on a large scale because we should probably grow food rather than fuel - and there's not enough farmland to do both.

So we're back to electricity. Batteries have improved massively in the past few years - so much so that someone with a bit of knowledge could go out tomorrow and replace the Tesla's battery with one 2/3rds the size&weight and a whole heap less complicated.

We can generate all the power we can possibly need without the use of fossil fuels, unfortunately the vast majority of the population are so hopelessly uneducated about nuclear power (not unlike the DeLorean story - you hear the same old falsehoods repeated time after time) that the govornment keeps postponing the inevitable. Wind power, solar power - give me strength! Fine on a small domestic scale but as a national source of power?! Pfffff.

I could go on... but I'll geroff my soap box.

[Guinney1971]

well said.

We run our old diesels on 'bio fuel', but thats filtered waste oil from restaurants et al, not
new palm oil from deforested areas in South America and Asia.

Just think how much used cooking oil Mc Donalds, KFC, Burger King, etc produce in a day!!
That could all be converted to bio diesel, but unfortunately it costs at the pump about as
much as regular diesel, if you can find it of course.

You're right Martin, something needs to be done, hence why we're also doing LPG conversions,
the Avi is done, we've got the kits for the Sera and my old 1.6 Cavalier, and we're talking to
a company about conversions for the De's. Ideally, once all the cars are converted, we'll be
buying minimal amounts of diesel and petrol to run our fleet.

I must admit, I do get a feeling of smug satisfaction filling the Avi up for £24 at Asda when
other people are putting £50+ in their petrol cars. And as for the cost? £1500 -
the conversion will pay for itself in 10,000 miles.

Interesting conversation this!

[stunned_monkey]

But where does LPG come from?

It was only promoted in the first place because of it's "cleaner" emissions - that was before all the carbon footprint bollx. I think I'll start a new brand of footwear that's made from coal....

Biodiesel is more expensive to make the petrochemical diesel, so even though the duty is less, it's not in the oil companies' interest to make the stuff - and who supplies the forecourt? :roll:

Ask yourself how many miles you do each day - or to put it another way, how often do you make a 200+ mile journey in one day?

I do 40 miles per day, Polly does 50*. Either could easily be done with an electric car that's left to charge overnight for a cost of a couple of quid. But my bugbear is that electric cars, including the "Leaf", are always these stupid cheaply made econo-boxes with as much sex appeal as a road accident.

Electric motors have their own set of characteristics which would make for some serious drivers' machines. Apart from the Tesla, nobody has tried (yet!)

(* and costs about £25 per week in fuel - smart roadster)

[mikesumner]

stunned_monkey Wrote:But where does LPG come from?

It was only promoted in the first place because of it's "cleaner" emissions - that was before all the carbon footprint bollx. I think I'll start a new brand of footwear that's made from coal....

Biodiesel is more expensive to make the petrochemical diesel, so even though the duty is less, it's not in the oil companies' interest to make the stuff - and who supplies the forecourt? :roll:

Ask yourself how many miles you do each day - or to put it another way, how often do you make a 200+ mile journey in one day?

I do 40 miles per day, Polly does 50*. Either could easily be done with an electric car that's left to charge overnight for a cost of a couple of quid. But my bugbear is that electric cars, including the "Leaf", are always these stupid cheaply made econo-boxes with as much sex appeal as a road accident.

Electric motors have their own set of characteristics which would make for some serious drivers' machines. Apart from the Tesla, nobody has tried (yet!)

(* and costs about £25 per week in fuel - smart roadster)

The Tesla is certainly a more interesting way of packaging the electric car than has been done beforehand, although the trouble with it is that because of it not having any gears and no clutch it's so fast that we've just imported a smashed up one from Denmark to be re-built at the factory in Norfolk because the owner took it for a spin and couldn't handle the performance. So perhaps slower electric cars have a longer life-span in that sense.

[stunned_monkey]

mikesumner Wrote:The Tesla is certainly a more interesting way of packaging the electric car than has been done beforehand, although the trouble with it is that because of it not having any gears and no clutch it's so fast that we've just imported a smashed up one from Denmark to be re-built at the factory in Norfolk because the owner took it for a spin and couldn't handle the performance. So perhaps slower electric cars have a longer life-span in that sense.

:?: Even people who aren't proponents of electric cars can see the advantage of not having a gearbox in favour of an "engine" that'll rev to 20,000rpm almost silently and deliver maximum torque at zero.

Inevitably tnhere's an incredible amount of flexibility in the software controlling the motor as to how it behaves.

[Guinney1971]

what an interesting topic of discussion

I used to do alot of miles, but I've been on maternity leave now for 6 months, so I've gone
from 150 miles a week to tootling about going to the local shops and taking baby to play
group once a week.

The way I see it, from my own personal perspective, is that our old 'bio cars' cost a few hundred
quid to buy, £50 to convert (heat exchanger), and very quickly pay for themselves. My old
blue Cav TD cost me £46 to buy, and on the road including 6m pot hole tax was about £250,
as I had to sort the head gasket which had blown. I ran that car for 10,000 miles, and it saved
me over £1000 by not having to buy diesel. I sold it last year for £250, and the old boy is
still going strong.

LPG, as far as I know, is the same as Calor gas, but named and taxed differently....

However, as has been said, the fact remains that there needs to be a workable and affordable
alternative to the internal combustion engine, because the oil wont last forever. And as Martin
said, most 'eco cars' are about as sexy as a road crash, and this is something else that has
to be addressed to make them more attractive to the buying public. The Tesla is beautiful, but
doesnt it cost summat daft like £70k? At that price, I'll stick with my Astra Convertible
running on veggie oil......

[stunned_monkey]

LPG is liquid petroleum gas and is not the same as propane (Calor). Eithe rway it's a fossil fuel that will run out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogas

Brighton runs its buses on WVO - I have to follow them regularly inhaling the barbecue smell.... I used to run that old BX on veggie from Tesco back when it was 45p/litre :roll:

The Tesla came just a little too soon - they're using Li-Ion cells which have great energy density but terrible efficiency at higher discharge rates. It's also just an Elise underneath - a great drivers' car but of limited appeal to those who like a comfy seat and not having to post themselves through the door like a daddy longlegs through a keyhole to get into the damn thing. And yes, it's Waaaaaay too expensive. It'd be cheaper to convert an Elise! (*strokes beard*)

Funnily enough the massive leap that will be benefitting cars very soon is the LiPo (Lithium Polymer) cell, the development of which, as I understand it, has largely been driven by modelling enthusiasts. In the modelling world, electric is already beating fuel for performance/weight.

[JamesRGUK]

Martin,

Getting a little off topic here, but I have done a bit of research on DIY electirc cars as it's somthing I'm really interested in, and would love to do a DIY electric conversion on an old car of some type.

When I hear 'it only has a range of 90miles' etc... for whatever electric car they review I think that's fine by me! I only do 30-50miles per day.

I am sure that I would be able to do 99% of all my car driving in a 100% electric car with a range of only 50miles, my commute is 14miles each way and even then the vehicle would be sitting unused from 09:00-18:00 while I'm working (a charging oportunity)

I was hoping that I might be able to incorporate a basic elestric set-up into a classic car with tax exempt status, as alot of those old cars are light, cheap and easy to chop around.

I would love to be able to do this one day, surly a small 2 seater car can be powered by some crude electronics with standard car batteiries that perhaps even I could devise?

And Martin with your knowledge of high ampage motor controllers using PWM power management I'm sure you of all people would be able to put somthing together.

(P.W.M. Pulse Width Modulation) I did learn somthing from robot wars :-)

maybe 1 day

James

[mikesumner]

Guinney1971 Wrote:what an interesting topic of discussion

I used to do alot of miles, but I've been on maternity leave now for 6 months, so I've gone
from 150 miles a week to tootling about going to the local shops and taking baby to play
group once a week.

The way I see it, from my own personal perspective, is that our old 'bio cars' cost a few hundred
quid to buy, £50 to convert (heat exchanger), and very quickly pay for themselves. My old
blue Cav TD cost me £46 to buy, and on the road including 6m pot hole tax was about £250,
as I had to sort the head gasket which had blown. I ran that car for 10,000 miles, and it saved
me over £1000 by not having to buy diesel. I sold it last year for £250, and the old boy is
still going strong.

LPG, as far as I know, is the same as Calor gas, but named and taxed differently....

However, as has been said, the fact remains that there needs to be a workable and affordable
alternative to the internal combustion engine, because the oil wont last forever. And as Martin
said, most 'eco cars' are about as sexy as a road crash, and this is something else that has
to be addressed to make them more attractive to the buying public. The Tesla is beautiful, but
doesnt it cost summat daft like £70k? At that price, I'll stick with my Astra Convertible
running on veggie oil......

Funnily enough I was out in the warehouse at work looking at the smashed up Tesla in question and apparently it costs £120,000 new so quite how the owner of it feels right now I can't imagine. Amazingly he wasn't injured as I've spoken to him in Denmark, which having see the state of the car is quite impressive.

[JamesRGUK]

mikesumner Wrote:Funnily enough I was out in the warehouse at work looking at the smashed up Tesla in question and apparently it costs £120,000 new so quite how the owner of it feels right now I can't imagine. Amazingly he wasn't injured as I've spoken to him in Denmark, which having see the state of the car is quite impressive.

The Tesla is slow compaired to this Electric conversion of an Ariel Atom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsGeQby7Jnw

J

[stunned_monkey]

only 25kWh of battery pack though, so it'll have a small range.

I wouldn't want to go quite so mad with the motor - I'm looking at a 35kW unit that weighs a mere 11kg (and is British made!). Two of them and you've got more than enough to invert your eyeballs. It's also a DC permanent magnet motor so no complicated 3 phase motor controllers to design and build.

Forget lead acid batteries now - power density per unit weight is terrible. For a demo of what a LiPo can do, have a squint at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w_K08fwZnA

I've found some really nice high capacity LiPo cells that're about the size of a briefcase but only 17mm thick and weigh 5kg. There's a choice of 200Ah that'll do 400A or 240Ah and will do 250A. They're a tad pricey though at $500/cell and I'd need 30....... so maybe just rack up a load of plane batts

[Guinney1971]

James, I like your idea of a battery powered tax exempt car...... something like your old
Spitfire would be good - mebbe go for a GT6 as its got the rear hatch to put the batteries
in?

As for veggie powered cars smelling funny, yep my car does smell like a chicken barbeque -
but thats gotta be better then the smell of diesel! lol I remember that old BX Martin, is it still
going?